Interview with Merkley???: Art and the Internet
So I wrote a blog entry a while back that mentioned the NYT article by Virginia Heffernan, in which she suggests that Flickr, as a community or entity, has created a style known as a “Flickr photograph” that involves a lot of post-production shining up, and that hardcore Flickrtographers prefer this kind of style to more traditional photography, sort of hinting that many Flickr users don’t have extensive knowledge of the history of photography. You mentioned that “ny times’ lady’s ass has no idea what it is talking about.” What’s your beef with the article?
I wouldn’t call it a beef. I just think it’s completely inaccurate to call my stuff or any of the other stuff to which she points as being representative at all of flickr as a whole — unless of course she was doing some opposite day deal. The whole reason we stand out is because we ARE NOT doing it like all the others — huge DUH right there. In my case she was also wrong about my style having anything to do with flickr. My life on this planet both awake and while asleep make up the content of my art — not the medium that makes it easy to display and share.
I thought It was basically a lazy and unthoughtful article which gave very little insight into what flickr is or the few artists that stand out amongst its millions of users.
BUT I WAS HAPPY TO BE INCLUDED :)
What kind of response did you get from being in a NYT article?
I sold a bunch of books and did a slightly uncomfortable followup interview with a woman from a san francisco magazine. I haven’t seen if that article ever materialized. My feeling during the interview was that the interviewer might have been a bit off put with my criticism of the art establishment, there were a few moments in which i detected some pretty clear vibes of blasphemy as if I was attacking her gods. Of course I couldn’t say for sure that she felt that way, but it seemed like it. At one point I was even expecting “satan, get thee behind me” to come out of her mouth.
One of the most annoying things I’ve found as an adult getting into art school is the question of what is and is not art. What is your personal definition of art? Do you think that “fine art” even exists anymore? What’s the difference between art work and fine art?
Art is product minus accountability.
Any attempt elevate one type of art over another really has nothing to do with ART, it has to do with commerce and marketing. The art establishment, meaning the people with money who buy and sell art for big money have the most interest in defining art as “fine”.
It’s a marketing term — nothing more.
If you want to know more about how I feel like the art business is run, do some googling and read about how the diamond business came to be and continues to dupe the public into accepting the illusion of high value when there is really no common sense reason to support it.
You’ve done an amazing job of creating your own online empire, from your huge Flickr following to self-publishing your own book. What do you think about the impact the internet is making on the art industry in general?
The internet allows people like me, who have no interest in tea bagging the art establishment, a very handy way to circumvent and avoid them. Some people love the establishment, some people like to have their balls tied up till they turn purple while someone else clamps their nipples and someone else pees on them. I don’t. I quit religion to get away from pious phoney “holy men” with god fetishes bilking the common man out of his hard earned cash so it’d be silly for me to rejoin them under the tent of “fine art”. Blech.
But more power to them, to each their own, you like it doggie style while reading the bible? GREAT — TAKE PICTURES!
Why aren’t more “fine artists” taking advantage of the web to gain exposure and sell their work directly to consumers?
lots of reasons but i think they mostly boil down to fear.
fear of failure, fear of criticism, fear of obscurity — fear of soccer moms….
Like the big religions who have spent centuries refining their doctrines and methods of harnessing the will and minds of their subjects, the art establishment seems to have followed suit. Holy institutions spend most their energies on the subject of hell which taps into a person’s most basic fears. Not so coincidentally, the art establishment is giddy to toss apple biters out of it’s garden as well.
Hardly original.
Having never been in their garden I couldn’t tell you if it’s good or bad to be cast out, but I can say that it’s pretty great out here on the outside.
Teabagging and nipple clamping are totally OPTIONAL!
CHOICE! YAY!
What do you think is going to happen to the traditional art markets (galleries, museums, fares, shops, etc) in the next 5-10 years?
Like religion and despots, they will be fine, in fact they will thrive. For whatever reason, many people on this planet seem to LOVE being told what to think and how to feel and the art establishment is really great at that.
Besides, lets be honest, the entire art establishment consists entirely of a tiny handful of guilt ridden mega-rich self-loathers who throw money at art as an attempt to feel like they have some sort of important role without having to be accountable for any really tough or important decisions.
The rest of the world watches Britney spears.
In context, The art establishment is a very very insignificant group of purse lipped auction attendees. I don’t think the internet represents so much an end to their puny institution so much as it represents a great escape for the many of us who are uninterested in the bullshit. In the future we will see many more artists and consumers go it alone while the rest will continue as faithful party members being as predictably secret clubby as always.
when i say “the art establishment” i’m talking about the old fuddy duddy gate keepers. there is also the whole world of “outsider artists” (talk about a misnomer) that have been gaining really significant ground in the markets due to things like juxtapoz and that whole anti-school school of things.
the future will be more like that — more consumer based — smart galleries will thrive because people will demand to physically see what they discovered on the internet — it will be the fud dud gate-keepers that will suffer. the people who got into the business to tell people how to think will still have their niche but it will be nothing compared to the glory days.
anyway, didn’t want to pretend to be unaware that there is already a huge art market outside of “the art establishment” that is thriving.
Why do you think so many art-industry big-wigs are completely ignoring the impact the internet has already had on these industries?
I’m not sure they are ignoring it. They are just Wizard of Oz-ing as long as they can before Toto pulls the curtain back. You can’t blame them for that. It’s kinda cute in a sad sort of way.
How do you think the internet has both improved and exacerbated the quality and delivery of art in general?
hmmn — i’m not sure the internet has improved the quality of art, that’s all totally subjective, but it has made it easier for little timmy who just loves dirt sandwiches to find the one shop on the other side of the globe that makes them the best.
CHINESE DIRT WITH FLECKS OF POO!!! YUM!
Also, any time a tool comes along that removes a barrier that inhibits little sheila from expressing her most truest self, I stand up and clap. That, to me, is the role of technology. Technology lessens the gap between ideas and reality. The smaller the gap, the happier I am as a consumer and an artist.
Do you think an online presence is more important than an offline presence for working and new artists?
The gap between online and offline is only going to get smaller and smaller, but with online acting as such a great aggregator of taste, it would seem rather short sighted, maybe even mind numbingly stupid, to not embrace it.
But hey, if you wanna keep your landline and sit by the phone waiting for Andy Warhol to invite you to one of his parties, be my guest.
You did a great interview with JPEG magazine in which you said that “I am first a painter and I treat every original file as nothing more than a starting point - like an underpainting. After that every element in the photo gets individual treatment, just like painting. Painters understand how I do what I do.” This completely changed the way I look at your work, even after I’d read your manifesto about not being a photographer. Can you explain your process?
Hmm, that really is an explanation of my process — compose a picture, take it, open it up in photoshop, then work on each element until it suits my taste and tells the story like I want it told. If something needs to be added to the story I add it, if something needs to be taken away I do that — just like painting only more cheaty.
Where do you find all the objects and subjects for your work?
A lot of them find me these days, mostly at bars and dance parties.
What’s your fascination with symmetry, pickles, animals, lamps, couches and naked chicks?
Symmetry is probably about respect and work ethic. The rest is all just stuff I think is AWESOME.
In your interview with Apogee Magazine, you mentioned that digital cameras got you back into photography. What was your experience with photography before the digital era?
My dad always kept a loaded camera around when I was a kid. I still look back at the photos I took and realize that I was pretty adamant about composition and telling a story even way back then. I have always been a story teller, but but my laziness and unwillingness to deal with labs kept me from REALLY pursuing photography. Also, I really kinda looked down my nose at photography as being too easy. I considered photography to be one of the lowest forms of art as compared with painting, illustrating, writing, film making etc.. which all seemed to require much more from the artist.
When I was a mormon missionary in brazil, i avoided my evangelical duties by taking lots of fairly typical photos of poverty and wrinkled people etc… I like good reportage photography, but i’m much more interested in making photos than taking them now.
In the same interview, you gave a great quote: “Art is where cowards hide from accountability. The really creative people are inventing new technologies and cures for diseases where it is completely obvious who got it right and who fucked up. In art, a coward can always just say to his critics “Fuck off, you’re just stupid. You don’t get it.” That doesn’t work if your O-Ring fails and the Space Shuttle blows up.” After leaving the job market at the height of my professional bullshit career, I often think I’m hiding from accountability by choosing to make art over having to deal with the daily grind of getting a paycheck. I think there’s something about art that attracts people who have egos that aren’t productive unless they’re left alone, and this is often accompanied by bouts of crippling self-doubt. Do you go through dry spells or rounds of battling with your own ego?
I’m my biggest fan and worse critic but those two sides cooperate fairly well. one night, as I often do, as I walked to the meeting place where people drink booze, I interviewed myself on the subject of going it alone .
merkley???: what is your secret merkley???
merkley???: I was blessed with a good dose of confidence and cursed with an awful dose of delusion.
merkley???: so you were blurssed with a gooful dose of delufidence?
I have never felt like I went through any dry spells creatively, i mean I have always felt like i have good ideas and i have pretty much always been pretty self entertaining, but i have gone though long periods in which i didn’t actually produce anything physically, but that never really bothered me much because, for me, the real fun is in thinking an idea not executing it. In a perfect world i’d have a host of minions making my creations while i just stayed in bed dreaming.
How do you deal with the stress of running your own show?
i don’t really feel stressed. i was stressed when i used to have a job. but i quit my last job in 1992 and never looked back and the stress has been much much less.
It’s not like I really ever had a choice about running my own show. i’m basically unemployable — i have nearly violent reactions to even the smallest insinuations of authority.
As you find more financial success through your own hard work, does the battle get any easier, or more difficult?
well, it’s mostly more fun because since i set up my life so that i’d never have to rely on my art to be the source for finances, any money that comes from it seems like free money, but like i just said, i have a really bad reaction to any sense of obligation so i will often stage a mutiny even though my boss is me. so sometimes i have to remind myself that i’d be doing art even if i wasn’t getting paid just to remove myself from any sense of obligation.
sometimes i have to treat myself like i’m a third grader.
luckily, since the bulk of my art was and is made with no accountability to commerce it kinda shows and if there is anything unique about it, it’s probably attributable to that. the real upside to it is that when people DO come around looking to pay me, they really come looking for me to do what i do, so it hasn’t been painful so far.
i turn away work if i can’t do it my way. i see no reason to do it someone else’s way. it’s just art. it’s not important.
One of the aspects of your work that I’ve always admired is your very loud and often obnoxious persona, including how you choose to communicate with both fans and people who are critical of your work or process. I think it takes a lot of balls to pull off an outspoken, sometimes controversial personality because you open yourself up to more criticism than artists who prefer the safety of being more subdued, or not exposing their personal life or beliefs with their professional careers. What is the ratio between Merkley??? the person, and Merkley??? the persona?
it’s easy to be loud about art because no matter what you say you’re gonna be right — hence the no accountability.
merkley??? the person and persona are one and the same, just different sides for different venues.
i’m often surprised when people meet me and are surprised to find me pleasant and reasonable. I use the same words and discuss the same subjects, but in real life i guess they can see me smiling and being me so whatever idea they had about me as being loud or obnoxious doesn’t jibe.
i’m trying to use more emoticons when i write online to maybe give a more realistic impression, but at the same time, i don’t much give a fuck about what online people think about me, i already have too many real life friends anyway who love me and i love them back. it’s not like i need anymore.
also, i have no problem attacking art critics, especially since i see art as being so unimportant in the whole scheme of things. I’m an art critic too and i wouldn’t expect anything less than to be slapped silly if i tried to tell an artist what i thought they ought to be doing. art is about doing it YOUR WAY — for good or for bad, that’s really what makes it YOUR art.
plus art critics are mostly talentless schlubbs feeding on table scraps because they can’t get a seat at the table. even the good ones are at best good dogs :)
How do you handle the additional scrutiny this entails? How does the Merkley??? persona evolve with your work as it changes over time?
like i said, there really is no persona, it’s really me, the beard isn’t fake… i suppose i’m evolving along with everyone else in the world. all of my tastes and opinions are subject to change. some people don’t like that.
i don’t mind the scrutiny… most people are wonderful and nice and depending on my mood, the ones who aren’t that want to start something with me will either be ignored or we’ll go a few rounds venting off a little rage. no harm in that.
I’ve read (somewhere, can’t find the reference) that you think art school doesn’t really prepare anyone to be a better or more successful artist. Did you go to art school?
no. the term “art school” seems like a total oxymoron.
as far as i can see, art school has never created a good artist but it has probably wrecked a few. if someone has what it takes, they had it going in, if they are lucky, they will still have it coming out.
What is your formal training background?
my mom called me an artist when i was four. I took it seriously. When my kindergarten teacher asked me on the first day what i WANTED to be when i grew up i said, “I AM an artist.”
i wrote about that day here. life is the only training you need to do art — i have had 41 years of that so far.
Most of my favorite artists ended up teaching themselves a particular skill, and their work is better because of it. With all of the information on art skills that the internet offers, do you think paying the money to go to art school is a waste of time?
yes. but i’d be glad to accept tuition if anyone wants to live in my guest room for a few weeks.
Do you think the days of paying for an MFA are numbered…
no — sucker born every minute.
…unless someone wants to spend the rest of their professional life in an ivory tower?
they love those.
How often do you make paintings these days?
never.
Do you sell them?
nope, i like to keep them, they take too long to make and i don’t know anyone who would pay me enough to part with them. they aren’t worth that much because they aren’t that good.
i never really ever made a painting i could truthfully say i thought was really good.
What makes painting harder than making cool photographs?
no undo command.
Have you ever combined analog painting with digital photography (i.e. painting with oils or acrylic or whatever onto a digital print)?
nope.
How has your painting background influenced your photo-paintings?
i think i already answered this, but i think to add to it i’d say that a person coming to photoshop photography from traditional painting will probably come with a lot more patience than someone who got into photography for instant results.
How does your photo-painting influence your analog paintings?
that hasn’t happened yet. it might though.
A lot of your photography involves a lot of young, nude, good-looking white women. How come there ain’t more brothas and sistas on the walls?
i photograph the people i know.
What do you think about America’s politically correct culture?
it’s stupid and i hate it.
Do you think it promotes self-censorship, or do you think it provokes artists to be more controversial, since political correctedness makes it easy for any subject to seem controversial?
the website stuffwhitepeoplelike.com sums up quite concisely my feelings about politically correct white liberals.
Have you ever decided to tone down or change a particular subject matter because the trigger-happy, PC-culture response wouldn’t be worth the trouble to tackle something controversial?
no — they don’t care about me, i’m not famous.
What are your political views?
i agree with ron paul.
Do politics play any role in your art work?
sometimes more than others. mostly no.
Are you patriotic? What’s your definition of patriotism?
i wouldn’t say i’m patriotic because that would suggest i put my country before my ideals and my ideals come before my country. my ideals are based in individualism.
Do you believe that art can change the direction of politics?
yes, but the really big stuff takes a generation or two which is why it’s a good idea to write children’s books.
Can art change anything?
absolutely, from happy to sad to miserable to angry - to euphoria to hysteria and everywhere else- that’s why it’s fun and sometimes seems like magic.
Has your own work changed the way people think, or influenced people’s belief systems?
some have said so but only they would know for sure. mostly i’m trying to give people a short little break from reality, a little time out.
You live in San Fransisco. How has the city, or the culture of the city, influenced your work? What is it like living there? What was it like going from a religious Mormon background (in Utah) to what the majority of Americans consider to be the most liberal city in the country?
i moved from provo utah which is literally the most republican city in the country, maybe the world, to the lower haight which is literally the most liberal neighborhood in the country, maybe the world. while the bulk of my views are shared by neither side i can say from experience that the liberals have more hatred and are more intolerant on the whole.
out of the frying pan into the fire.
definitely two sides of the same coin.
san francisco and provo could both stand a huge heaping dose of balance.
but i love san francisco — what is good about it far outweighs what sucks and what sucks about it just makes it a great challenge.
i do NOT miss utah.
anyway, a city is what you make it and this city is MINE for the making.
Speaking of religion, you’re an atheist these days. I’m assuming that means you think that human beings have one shot at life, and that once we’re dead, we’re worm food. I was never a religious person, but when I made the decision to start paying more attention to science and psychology instead of continuing the search for a manic-depressive god-like force, it was a much bigger deal, and had a much bigger impact on my life, than I thought it would. I wonder if going from an intense religious background to atheism has a more profound impact. Was there a specific moment or memory when you became an atheist?
i was born atheist so i think it would be more accurate to recall the moment when i returned to sanity.
that was in 1994 when i decided to take a break from my rising career in mormonism to play devils advocate and look at the mormon church as a skeptic. it was meant to be an exercise, i had every expectation that i would return from my experiment a more faithful, more prepared servant.
two weeks into my investigation i was done with the mormon church, one week later i was done with christianity, a few days later i was back to atheism, my birthright — and thank GOD for THAT! :)
Does atheism influence your work or aesthetic in any way?
YES. completely. enjoy life NOW, it’s your only one. do not procrastinate your joy. There is no heaven but right now, don’t make it hell.
Was it a big deal for you to change your religious views?
no, i am a fast adopter of good ideas. the difficult part was getting over the bitterness and resentment to the the people who lied to me for 25 years.
but i’m almost done with that. it’s a journey.
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Check out more of Merkley???’s work at flickr and his website. Details about his book 111??? are here.
